Interview of my father December 27, 2005 in the 19th house on Mexicali

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ALEX: Well, where were you born?

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ENRIQUE: In Klodawa, Poland. It’s on the highway from Berlin to Warsaw. If you follow the highway it’s practically impossible to miss. The highway divides it in two sections, one on the left and one on the right.

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A: And how many people lived in the village?

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E: I don’t really know, but I always had the impression that around 2,000 people lived there, of which 1,000 were Jewish and about 1,000 were Polish.

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A: And how was this town.

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E: In the town the majority of the houses were one floor, there were houses with two floors, but higher than two floors there weren’t any

 

A: And what were the houses made out of? Brick, wood?

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E: Brick mostly

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A: Was there main road?

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E: Yes, there was a main road that still exists today that’s on the main route to Warsaw.

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A:  And it was named after… I don’t really remember, but a chief cardinal in the church. Was it Clem?

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E: No, it was a name that was very Polish. And, well, on that road there was a, the house of our family

And what family members were there. Well, we lived there and also grandpa Chelminsky lived there. And after the war, well actually many years after the war maybe 15 or 20 years 22 maybe we went to visit the house and met the owner of the house and he showed us the documents of the house and everything and welcomed us. And on the scriptures and documents it said that the house had previously been sold by Karman (?) Chelminsky, which was a man and that was about two and half months after we had visited Berlin and the Holocaust monument. And on the inside of the monument there was a list of everyone who was exterminated or killed in the Holocaust. Well, those who they found documents for and could identify them. And we looked at the documents and looked at the list and we tried to identify anybody with the last name Chelminsky or any family member that was part of the Chelminsky family. And on that list we find Karman (?) Chelminsky who had been killed in Auschwitz in 1944. And they sold the house in 1947. That’s one of those miracles.

 

ALEX: So there was you and your parents, your brother, your grandpa, but there are other members of the family. Where did they live?

 

ENRIQUE: Well, they lived in other parts, but after we left I think my Dad’s sister got there. My Uncle Jose as well and his sons.

 

ALEX: And what memories do you have of your childhood?

 

ENRIQUE: Well, I had good relations with Jewish kids and some Polish kids. But what I really remember is that I really only spoke Polish and when I got to Mexico and went to Yiddish school, they were saying that Yiddish was to be preserved since I believe that during the wars the language of Yiddish was starting to be lost. And I was also reading that when Hitler came to Poland that around 70% of Jewish people had the language of Polish instead of the language of Yiddish. And for five years I went to school of Heider (?) where the majority of language spoken was in Polish and there they spoke Heider(?) but I didn’t remember much I could barely speak it, but only with my father would we talk it a little bit but it wasn’t something that we did. But what I do remember is that we went frequently to go study and that’s all I remember about that. Because generally there all the kids would be mischievous and be troublemakers and those kids really didn’t like school. They did all they could to just avoid school. And I remember when I was a kid in Klodawa that I would go to school and generally they would take me and my mother would take me because my Father had come to Mexico when I was one or two and he left me with my mother and my sister and I remember that the brothers of my mother would come and take us to neighboring cities. And they were much different from Klodawa. It was really different, it was really rocky and a lot of cities were divided and it was really well divided. The house of my mom’s brother impressed because it had a reel or a switch that could lift the roof from the kitchen to the living room and it really impressed and it’s something I hadn’t seen. And also the military orders of that year where they ordered us to stay at our houses and that nobody could come out since there were gas battles and gases where outside so it was safer to stay inside. And I recall where they were practicing the gas attacks and it was at a part where they were practicing on animals and what impressed me was Polish soldiers would arrive to Jewish towns with buckets and when they would leave, they would leave with buckets full of blood. I didn’t see it, but my friends would tell me. Since Jewish people couldn’t have the blood that the Polish would come and gratefully take it. And I think they also took other pieces of the animal also other body parts of the animal, but I’m not too sure. I also remember another season in Samponia (?) where I was at a building and they were teaching a class and there were about 30 seats for the students and one of the professors had chicken and they had found something else in the chicken other than what they were supposed to find. So, the professor tells another instructor about it and they look at each other through a window and supposing that we weren’t allowed to be able to do that. And so that was neat, but i also remember that my uncle Sam and uncle Abraham had already come to Mexico and I don’t remember where, but they had already come. And my father was the third one to go.

 

ALEX: And how old were you when your Dad left?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

ENRIQUE: I think I was about, maybe two years old and my sister was one year old I think.

 

ALEX: So your dad left a woman with two very young children to go across the ocean to a new country and start a new life? If so, what motivated him to leave and what unmotivated (?) to stay and continue his life back in Poland?

 

ENRIQUE: Well, it was after the 1929 crash that affected a lot [invented] of Europe and a lot [invented] of Poland. And my dad thought that we should’ve immigrated and left in search of a place with better business opportunities to make a fortune. And to look for a better place that was offered other than what wasn’t offered in Poland (??). And I do think that it was possible that he chose Mexico so that he could later go to the United States, but since his older brother, Samuel, my Uncle Samuel, came I think it was already established that the idea was to come to Mexico and start and maintain a life in Mexico.

 

ALEX: So when he got here there was already someone to receive him here, correct?

 

ENRIQUE: Yea, there were people here to receive him, yes there were.

 

ALEX:So he got to Mexico alone?

 

ENRIQUE: Yes, yes he came here alone. Got here alone. And he went across all of pretty much Mexico until he got to Minatitlán (translator incorrectly says menazitlan in audio), Veracruz where he settled in with someone that he had met in Poland. (Translator omitted quite a bit here..)

 

ALEX: And is that what all the uncles did? They came and were trading and selling things and then found a place to stay or?..

 

ENRIQUE: Well, they came and tried to make some money and then tried to establish a place where they could stay. And they made money selling fertilizer and they would just go in general areas and try and sell that just to make money. But I do remember reading in some book that if you traveled to Mexico and wanted to stay somewhere that you would try and choose a place where there weren’t any Jewish people because that would make it difficult establishing a business. But I don’t think that was a general rule because I do remember that there was a store that sold textiles and clothing. And so I don’t really think that was an issue since the store that we had generally sold tools and farming stuff, so it wasn’t really an issue for us.

 

ALEX: Tell me about your exit from Poland and when you guys left?

 

ENRIQUE: Well, we left one day when mom was like we’re leaving Poland and she dressed us in nice clothes and we got on a bus. And that bus would take us to the border so we could get on a train and cross into Germany and then into France. Since the bus was going to cross one of the towns where one of my mother’s friends was, my mother thought that the fifteen minute bus stop there would be beneficial to her and she would visit a friend while the bus was there. After the fifteen minute break, my mother hadn’t returned and it was my, 5 years old and my sister of 4 years old, we were on our way to America. We were alone and we were crying and crying and it appeared that nobody really noticed us. And finally we see behind the bus our mother running after the bus and the bust stops and lets her on. And she gets on and the bus driver gets a little angry with her and lectures her and says that this is the last time that that will happen with her. My mother really didn’t care since she pretty much knew that that was the last time she would get on that bus. When we took the train that crossed us into Germany, the cities that we’d pass by really impressed us. Everything was constructed and the cities were really clean and it was really nice. The conductor was really nice and was really welcoming and pinched our cheeks and was very welcoming to us. And then we were really impressed when it was lunchtime and we received a lunch from the train staff and it was really different since we had not really seen that back in Poland and we were really excited to see what we would see in the new world and what was outside of Poland. And before that we had gone to Warsaw to try and get our passports and our visas to go to Mexico. And there we got a little box with a little lock and the staff members said that we should keep that and keep all our Mexican money in there and keep it safe until we got there. And to start it off he put in a couple coins of I think 25 cents in the box. And those coins were made of silver. Now they are probably worth something.

 

ALEX: And what happened to that box? Do you have it?

 

ENRIQUE:  No I don’t have it.  We had visited I think it was Lodz. We had visited I think we had family members there and my mother had a couple brothers there. And in that house we slept. And in that house I remember that I had jammed one of my fingers and one of my nails. And an uncle had told me that we had to remove my nail, it was black and we had to take it out and I said no, I didn’t want to. And that night I fell asleep and when I woke up, I looked down at my nails and it was gone. And apparently an uncle had come in and taken it out while I was asleep. It’s one of those memories I have that I every time I hear the word Lodz. I remember that episode and that story in my life. I also remember that we went skating, we went ice skating. We ice skate a lot and we did so well, then when we came to Mexico we really didn’t have the opportunity, but we skated anyways but we tried to recover some of the skill that we had ice skating and tried to put that towards regular skating, which was roller-skating, roller-blading. And I also remember one time one uncle took me to a city and then to return to Klodawa he couldn’t find a bus back. It was late and we had to go back, but there was no bus and it was late. And it’s not like we could’ve gotten a hotel or we could call by phone and tell somebody that we were stuck in that city and we weren’t going to be able to get back that night. And so my uncle went hitchhiking on the side of the road on the highway and he found a trucker that offered us a ride back and we really appreciated that. It was cold and we were lying down on the back next to the pallets and the planks that were all dusty in the back of the truck. And after a few hours, which I really don’t know how it was a few hours since the trip shouldn’t have been that long, we get back to Klodawa and my mother was all worried because it was really late.

 

ALEX: And how long did it take you to cross Germany?

 

ENRIQUE: I don’t know, I didn’t really have a sense of time.

 

ALEX: And, so you guys finally got (?) and you guys crossed the border with France?

 

ENRIQUE: Yes, I think it was le Havre, France. And I think i know so because I would see it in photo albums or photos and I would identify it as Havre.

 

ALEX: And, well, the boat you took, I have a photo right here and the boat was called Mexique. Do you recall?

 

ENRIQUE: No, I don’t (and looks at the photo that the interviewer has).

 

ALEX: And here is the photo and you are here next to the boat and you are with the lifeguard, so that is why I think that that was a French boat

 

ENRIQU: Yes, it was a French boat and we were going to Veracruz, directly to Veracruz.

 

ALEX: And your mother without speaking a lick of Spanish went to a completely different country

 

ENRIQUE: Well, she spoke German.

 

ALEX: Oh, she spoke German.

 

ENRIQUE: Yes. And that’s where we waited for the tickets and waited for the train. It was me, my mother, and my sister. And everywhere I went I got different nicknames. Officially in the house they gave me the name of Enrik, Henrik. So people joked that it was genius since they have a connection with the beginning letters.

 

The thing is that when they went to go register me and gave me the name of Hersezevik (??) the name of the house was Henrik and they just gave me many names. And deli (?) was because of some friend or family member?

 

I suppose so, but I didn’t find any with that name when I saw the list of the Chelminskys on the Holocaust monument. Could have been a family member on my mother’s side of the family.

 

ALEX: Do you still have your birth certificate or any documents that have your full name on it?

 

ENRIQUE: No, I don’t have any certificates or documents. I just have one receipt that says that my dad went to go register me and gave me the name of Herzely Chelminsky. And it says I was born October 9, 1927.

 

ALEX: Do you remember the boat?

 

ENRIQUE: Yes, I remember the boat. It was pretty small, so you could remember everybody that was there. I remember some, but I forgot a couple of them.

 

ALEX: And where did they come from?

 

ENRIQUE: I don’t know.

 

ALEX: And do you remember your arrival at Mexico?

 

ENRIQUE: I remember when we arrived and we sat down and my mother left her bag and she got up to use the restroom. And we also saw two men that when they got up and left my mother came back and she said that her purse was gone. And she was worried because it had her passports and all her documents, as a well as money she had brought from Poland. And there were soldiers on the train, so it wasn’t very difficult to identify who had taken them and to retrieve them. The bag was recovered with the documents and passports, but obviously the money was gone. They had probably given it to somebody, so that was a lost cause. And when the train got to a port or arrival, my mother got off and went to go sign some paperwork and a couple, a man and a woman, sat down near us and you could just see on their face that they were just saddened or something was wrong. They were wearing raggedy clothes and just the facial expressions portrayed them like they had been suffering, just all messy, their hair was messy, and they were messy looking people. And it looked more like they were beaten to take their money and they were just left like that afterwards. And then the train took us to Menatitlán and that’s where our dad found us and took us.

 

ALEX: And, well, for you your dad was strange, he was a stranger wasn’t he?

 

ENRIQUE: Yes, he was a stranger. I didn’t know who he was, I didn’t know who the man was. But my mother had shown us photos, but it was still awkward and it was still strange to meet a stranger. And my mother and this man spoke in language that we had heard before, but we didn’t speak at home. We had spoken Polish at the house and they were speaking a curious language to us, we were unfamiliar with it, but we had heard it before. And the man asked my mother how is it possible that you all are speaking Polish? He had thought that we would speak Yiddish, but it was the other way around and we spoke Polish and all he knew how to speak was Yiddish. He knew very little Polish, so he looked at us as strangers as well. And it looked like he struggled to speak Polish to us, so at that moment it hit me that it was just very strange for us to speak Polish at the house. So then later on, we caught Spanish on pretty quickly and we spoke with my mother and my father in Spanish, so we learned Spanish quickly. And then we forgot Polish, pretty much all of it. It was mainly on my dad’s part since he barely spoke Polish and he spoke Yiddish. Later on I would realize that forgetting Polish is something that doesn’t have a name. Later on, you could always come back to that and knowing more than one language is always helpful, but that wasn’t the case as Polish was lost in our lives. We could have use Polish to better learn or quicker learn Russian or other languages.

 

ALEX: So, I take it you didn’t have those considerations at that age?

 

ENRIQUE: No, I don’t think anybody considered that at that time, or thought about that at that time. Who would know that at that time knowing another language would help you understand and explore the world and other things. One just used languages as utility. Like here in Mexico Polish wouldn’t be used for anything major.

 

ALEX: And here would you guys still speak Yiddish, would they still speak Yiddish? [18:05]

 

ENRIQUE: Yes, my mother and my father would always speak Yiddish to each other still. Very rarely would they speak in Polish to each other and that would be when they didn’t want us to understand or hear something, they would speak in Polish.

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ALEX: So, did you ever speak Yiddish growing up?

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ENRIQUE: No, we really didn’t speak Yiddish. Me, my sister, and my parents all spoke Spanish to each other.

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ALEX: Were there any other Jewish people in the town? [18:30]

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ENRIQUE: Yes, there would groupings/ meetings/ get-togethers with people in our house, and the people would wear these white things with black stripes on them.

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ALEX: And, that was at your house?

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ENRIQUE: Yes, it was there. That day that would come and pray here, and they wouldn’t eat. It’s not like that was a problem for my mother, that we didn’t have food to give them. So, yes, there were plenty of Jewish people; enough for them to gather together on the block. Some Jewish people had a gift shop on the corner. I don’t know what kind of gifts they had, maybe some leather gifts/souvenirs.  I don’t really remember the names. One of the guys had a gun. And we had a dog named Dora; a really pretty dog.  But, it got infected with something, and it collapsed.  The man Flemonsky, grabbed his gun and shot it. He shot Dora twice in the head so the dog wouldn’t suffer anymore.

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WEDNESDAY

DECEMBER 28, 2005 _TAPE CONTINUES

 

ALEX: So, you were talking about the dog. 

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ENRIQUE:  Yes, everybody left the scene except for me and my sister. We followed Mr. Flaminsky—it was in his backyard, so we followed him into his house, and noticed where he put his gun. He had this little door behind the head of his bed, and that’s where he would put his gun. Later, when he left to back to his little shop, we went back into his room and grabbed the gun, since nobody really locked their belongings, or their house. We went back into his room, and we opened the door, grabbed the gun, and for about 10 minutes we played with it. Not really shooting, but grabbing the trigger and saying “boom, boom”! Pointing the gun at each each other; my sister would point it at me, an I would point it at her. It was fun. We did that for about 10 minutes, then we put it away, then we went on to play other games. [20:20-20:45]

But, looking back at it now that really shows me how easy it is for children to access firearms and dangerous things in the house.

 

ALEX: And, after a few years,  news started coning in about  what was going Europe.  What memories do you have of those events, and how did the family and house react? How did your parents react, and how did your community react? [20:60]

 

ENRIQUE: One day I remember the Daily Press came out with a headline, “The Death of the Jews of Germany”. The news of the massacre of the Jews. Better yet they [parents?]  wouldn’t even speak of the holocaust, or speak of any of the events. They wouldn’t even mention  Jews or anything related to that. We wouldn’t hear any of it.  At that time my sister and I didn’t know that we were Jewish, and nobody nobody really told us about it, or would talk about it, or being Jewish or the religion or any of that. Nobody discussed the topic. [21:40]

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ALEX: And,  every year when they would gather at your house and wear those things you didn’t really question that? [21:44]

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ENRIQUE: No, I didn’t really know what that was. We really didn’t question it. My parents talked a little bit about it, but other than that we really didn’t know what that was. And, I remember one year when there was a group of people, definitely a vast amount of people there, and I knew something in common that they had, but I did not know what it was. And, they would all speak in a language that I would more or less understand. I remember back in Poland, it was normal for kids to go out and play,  and parents would let them go would go out and play, and we didn’t really pay much attention to what was going on inside the house. And, I don’t think that my parents realized that , hey, we we’re not in Poland any more, we’re here now,  and I’m not sure if that was really still allowed.  So, we really didn’t have much knowledge  what was going on inside, and the Jewish culture or Jewish tradition. 

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So, we didn’t know what we were celebrating and there were things we didn’t eat, but we didn’t why. I remember that my Dad would kill the chickens, and he would grab them by the throat and cut the  veins inside the neck so they would bleed out.  It was a scene, and my mother really didn’t like having to go through all that just to eat a sacred chicken. [22:58]

And, I remember, also, when my Dad would come back from Mexico City, he would come back with salami and other foods and we could eat them, but they couldn’t. We really didn’t pay much attention to what we couldn’t eat, because we really didn’t know much about the Jewish culture. It took awhile until we found out, and they taught us what we should  and shouldn’t t eat, and they really went into detail about what our people did. It was really in Mexico where we went to Jewish school and our classmates told us what we should and shouldn’t do. [22:60-23:31]

ALEX: Dad, let’s move on to the topic of events that happened in Europe. In 1945, so you were more conscious of who you were and what was going on, correct? When did those events really start filtering into your mind, and you started gaining consciousness and understantd of what was going on? [23:33-23:50]

ENRIQUE: It was really about 1940/41/42 when all the Jews [in Mexico] started realizing that something was going  on with the Jewish people in Poland. We were realizing that the Germans were treating us poorly, and something bad was happening. There were rumors of massacres and mistreatment, and poor treatment of the Jewish people by the Germans. In 1940, [1945??]  when the news got to us that  Europe was being invaded, and Russians were invading the camps and cities and finding out that 6 million people-Jews, practically all the Jewish people in Europe were terminated, and just killed and it was very tragic! It signified the sadness and the tragedy of the Jewish people in Mexico. And, as I diminished my Jewish life here, I really began to understand that the tragedy was very huge for the Jewish community, the Jewish population. All that was seen were tears and tears, day in and day out, from families and everybody who was seeing what was going on, and hearing what was going on. 24:00-24:55]

 

ALEX: The majority of your Dad’s family were able to escape and leave, right?

 

ENRIQUE: Yes, I believe a majority were able to get out.

 

ALEX: So, 3 years later the state or country of Israel was created, right? So, how was that received,  and reacted to in the Jewish community where you were from? [25:30]

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ENRIQUE: After receiving the news of the Holocaust, it was different receiving the news from the foundation of Israel. It was really tremendous!  A lot of history was then learned and shared with us. We learned about the massacre in Europe and how that compared to how it served to createthe state of Israel. And, it took a bit to move on, and to create a life in Israel that really overcame all the history that happened before the foundation of Israel. [25:53] It was interesting that the press of Mexico was not really surprised by the suffering of the Jewish people. It was more like they celebrated the defeats and the losses of the Jeiwsh people in the state of Israel; a battle here and a battle there. 

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ALEX: And, I would assume that later Mexico would create relations with the state of Israel because of all the Jewish people here, correct?

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ENRIQUE: No, you would really think it was a couple of years after, but it was many years after that they created those relations. There weren’t any real representatives of Israel here. There were courtesy representative, but it wasn’t really official.

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ALEX: So, there wasn’t an embassy or anything like a formal embassy here?

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ENRIQUE: It was years before Mexico recognized Israel as a real member, and they had embassies and ambassadors, and they would be recognized as a real state. Then Mexico sent an ambassador to Israel.

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ALEX: So, then you began your education in Jewish school in Mexico City? What memories do you have of those years?

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ENRIQUE: I remember that I did go to the Jewish school in the beginning. It was taught that I would need to learn English, but I didn’t really learn much English. I learned a few series of words, and vocabulary words, but nothing very big. There were English classes offered every day, and it was really stressed that you should learn enough English so you sshould be able read a newspaper or read a book or something, but all that we could really do is form sentences like “The apple is red”, “The boy is short”, “The girl is blonde”, but nothing really past short sentences, and simple sentences like that. It was taken for granted that we wouldn’t learn English, and it was something that later they would really stress, and the kids/students really didn’t want to learn it. All they really knew was how to form simple sentences, but the goal was that they would learn to read a book and speak the language profoudly. [26:00-27:51]

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Then later I went on to Yiddish school I learned that the guys I hung out with I became friends with almost instantly. At regular school I couldn’t really make friends while learning English at that school. It’s not like they weren’t genuine people, I just could not make friends with them. And, here the friends at Yiddish school would invite me to their house, I would learn that their parents  were the same as mine, and their families were the same as mine, and we shared a lot of the same values. And, I realized that I really didn’t learn anything about the Jewish religion, the Jewish culture at the other school. That school [Yiddish] really made me socialize and learn things about the Jewish community. I learned a lot of Jewish things that our family did, and it did interest me, and I wanted to learn more about it. {28:41]

 

ALEX: How did you really begin to socialize with yourself  Jewish friends? What exactly did you guys talk about and how did you really interact with them, and how did you realize you really wanted to know more about your Jewish background?

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ENRIQUE: I spent a lot of time with my Jewish friends, and that made me realize I was part of the Jewish community, and I was Jewish.

 

ALEX: The other guys that you hung out with, were they also immigrants who came here when they were little? [29:04]

ENRIQUE: Yes, there were a lot of them, and a lot of everything. There were immigrants who came when they were little, there were immigrants who came when they were teenagers, AND some when they were older. There was everything.

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ALEX: How long were you in Jewish school?

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ENRIQUE: 3 years. There weren’t any more years, then we entered high school. [29:28]

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ALEX: So, everything you learned about your Jewish culture and your Jewish self you learned in those 3 years?

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ENRIQUE: Yes.

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ALEX: And the friends you met in Jewish school, did they go to high school with you?

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ENRIQUE: Yes. Some went to high school with me, some went to further education with me, and I’ve know them throughout my career. We were the best friends that each of us had. It was really different being friends with a Jewish friend. It was different than being friends with somebody from a different culture. It was more rich, and a better feeling for me. It was different in a sense that I could invite them over to do homework or study, or over to hangout, or have something to eat but it wasn’t the same welcoming as it was with other friends that weren’t Jewish. They wouldn’t come over, or they wouldn’t invite me. It was just different. They thought differently of our religion; we crucified their God and other things. It was just a different feeling and a different connection with the friends that weren’t Jewish. It made me realize that those things you really wouldn’t think of before, but now you take into account when you think about other people and where you come from. 

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ALEX: Seems you have memories, and you remember a lot from your childhood and about growing up and when you got here.

 

ENRIQUE: Yes. And, I’m really fortunate that God blessed me with such a rich and great childhood, and to be raised by great parents, and live a healthy.

 

ALEX: What about your cousin Abraham? Were you good friends with him?

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ENRIQUE: No, not too much. We hung around with different people and we didn’t interact too much. And, there was a time when my parents and his parents had distanced themselves, and believe I had a conflict. Later on I think we repaired that distance, and really moved on past that. I think our parents had to conflict themselves with [31:29]

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ALEX: And, your cousins Estera and Rosita, the same?

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ENRIQUE: Yes, the same, Rosa, Ana, Martha, and her husband Enrique.

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ALEX: You were a little bit distanced because you didn’t really grow up with your cousin Abraham and others; they were different ages, yes?

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ENRIQUE: Yes.

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ALEX: And, did they ever get to Manititlan? [32:00]

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ENRIQUE: Yes, they got there. Your aunt got there, too, but after we had left.

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ALEX: And, what motivated your father to get out of Manititlan?

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ENRIQUE: He realized that the Jews were lost in the provence, and there wasn’t much future for the Jews. He knew that other families would distance themselves from the Jewish traditions as they integrated themselves into the community and the municipality that was there. Our father didn’t want that. So, he wanted to go to Mexico City where there were larger populations, bigger communities of Jewish people. [32:28]

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ALEX: What do you know about your grandfather, the rabbi?

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ENRIQUE: Well, Grandpa left Poland when Poland was going to war. He was going to board the boat or ship that was going to take him from France to Mexico. He was with his wife and with his kids and Uncle Jose and Martha. Abraham was with them, as well.

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ALEX: So, all of them came with your Grandpa?

ENRIQUE: Yes, they did.

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ALEX: Did they spend a lot of time in Mexico before he passed away? [32:00]

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ENRIQUE: No, I don’t think so. Maybe 4 or 5 years.

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ALEX: And, was he a rabbit here, as well?

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ENRIQUE: No, maybe, if there was a community here he would of, but no.

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ALEX: Now, talk to me about your first trip to Israel.

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ENRIQUE: My first trip was my honeymoon, since your mother and I were married in 1955. [33:19]

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ALEX: Did you have an idea of what you were going to find? What you were looking for? [33:25]

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ENRIQUE: Yes, I was looking for a country that spoke Hebrew, and somewhere where they would speak a lot of that language and I would really learn more about the culture. They took us on tours to places, tourist attractions. They took us to “Akra Israel” where they had murals of Napoleon. They took us to the place where Jesus Christ was buried and a few other churches. And, we also went to another series of churches or cathedrals where they showed the ascension of the Virgin Mary. And, really the only tourist attractions that they offered were Christian based, and religious attractions. Also, in Hashron, or near there were modern buildings that symbolized the sacrifice of Samson. It was really difficult that a guide would surprise any Jewish visitor, or Jewish tourists with those type of attractions. [34:26]

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ALEX: But, there were many things, weren’t there; Jewish parliament with Hebrew writing on the buildings, and other interesting things, right? The community which you grew up in was really portrayed by the community you were seeing in Israel, and the Hebrew language and the Jewish tradition, right?

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ENRIQUE: But, it was almost like a different color, a different feeling. There were minor differences, but I was prepared to witness and really live through those  witnesses and take them into account. It gave me a feel for the Jewish community in Israel, and really gave me the opportunity to compare it to what I went through, and what I realized and saw back home as I was growing up. I realized that the majority of people that were in Israel, that were getting to Israel, were there because they didn’t have many other options. [35:20]

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My wife spoke to people, and they were telling her that it was crazy that they were from Mexico, and what were they doing there? But, you did see a lot of people from North Africa, and other parts of Europe, Poland and other European countries that were going to Israel.

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ALEX: Your father was telling me that there was perhaps a group on Nazi’s, or something of that sort here in Manititlan. Do you have any information on that? [35:25]

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ENRIQUE: Yes, they were called gold-shirts. They were sponsored by the German embassy and they were here in Mexico. They were a start of the propaganda of the Nazi’s here in Mexico. It was rumored that they were coming around, and telling people not to buy from the Jewish markets or Jewish sellers; just trying to steer away from Jewish communities, and really trying to portray a bad image of the Jewish people in Mexico. Then the government would prohibit that type of activity in Mexico.

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ALEX: Did you have any type of anti-Semitic experience growing up, or in your childhood?

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ENRIQUE: No, nothing that would really grab my attention. Nothing that I could really recall, or that I would say was outstanding. Perhaps, maybe small things, tiny things; an argument or a fight with somebody, but nothing huge. I do remember one experience when I was in the fifth year of elementary school, I was 10 or 11, and I was around my friends, and there was a Protestant kid that was getting beat up. I stood up and said, “Hey, what’s going on? Why are you doing that just because he’s Protestant. I am Jewish.” And, my friends look at me and say, “Well, you’re at least  Catholic and he isn’t”. That just showed me a lot of ignorance and a lot of different aspects just from being Jewish.

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ALEX: Ok, Dad. Do you have anything else that you would like to add?

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ENRIQUE: Well, back to the anti-semitic acts, I received some names, or indirect phrases or insults, and a lot of teachers would take advantage of their authority and really insult and hurt those that were 16, 17, or 18 years old, and that would occur often to the minority of students. Those instructors or teachers held prejudices against the minority students and one day in class the instructor tells the joke of a Jewish boy will sit in his bed and count all the coins he’s picked up throughout the day, and everybody in the class would look at me, and the instructor would point at me and say, “Ask him, ask him!” 

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I remember a few years ago, a professor of mine received an award for learning languages, and teaching profound languages in Mexico. So, I sent her a card, and congratulated her, and asked her about a lady that she had hired in an institution where she gave out anti-semitic ??

 

ALEX: Let me ask you, Dad, when you returned to your town many years afterwards, in Poland, can you reflect on anything that you may have noticed or thought of when you were there encountering it again, or about the childhood you could have had?

ENRIQUE: When I left I know it was particularly Jewish, but when I returned it appeared it wasn’t even a trace of it being at all Jewish. The evidence that they just ceased to exist. The animals just ran them out; the Polish people ran them out.

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My visit with Enrique Chelminsky. Mexicali Street, Mexico City, March 2017:

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